Steve Kirsch interviews Gail Macrae
Published on 1 Jan 2024
[Steve Kirsch]
Introduction
Hi, Steve Kirsch, I'm here with Gail McCray. Gail was a nurse at Kaiser and she has a really interesting story to tell and because she's no longer a nurse there, she's free to talk about what really happened. So Gail, it's delightful to meet you here virtually. I read about you on the CHD site and we talked earlier and I just thought your story was so stunning and wanted to share it with my followers. So could you introduce yourself, tell us about your background in nursing and also your time at Kaiser, how long you've been there and then we'll get into what your experiences were.
[Gail Macrae]
Gail's Background
Yeah, so I was born and raised in Northern California. I graduated from nursing school from Cal State East Bay in 2011.
[00:01:01]
I was hired by Sutter in 2012. I worked there for a few years as a nurse, ICU telemetry med surge and then I moved to Africa and my husband and I went there to explore the third world and deliver babies. I was there working in the labor and delivery for close to a year. My husband is a water engineer. He was working on getting clean water to communities in rural Tanzania. And then when we came back, I was hired, I was pregnant and I got hired by Kaiser in San Rosa and I worked there for Kaiser for five years. I started grad school to become a certified nurse midwife and women's health nurse practitioner in 2020, right around the beginning of the pandemic, which gave a lot of insight into the real details in the data that I wouldn't have necessarily seen had I just specifically been working on the floor.
[00:02:06]
But so for Kaiser, I worked all over the hospital. I was benefited at some points, which gave me a home unit and then at a lot of other points in my career at Kaiser, I worked per diem, which means that I would float all over the hospital to different units. I developed relationships with the staff and management all over the hospital. And I was very familiar with the way that the whole facility worked.
[Steve Kirsch]
Start at Kaiser
And you started there what year?
[Gail Macrae]
[Steve Kirsch]
At Kaiser in 2015, way before the pandemic.
[Gail Macrae]
Yes.
[Steve Kirsch]
So you're familiar with what was going on, what's normal then in the hospital because you've been working there for at least five years before the shit hit the fan, so to speak, or maybe the shit didn't hit the fan.
[Gail Macrae]
Absolutely.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay.
[Gail Macrae]
And then before that, I worked for Sutter, which is another one of the largest.
[00:03:05]
[Steve Kirsch]
Right, so you've had experiences in multiple chains, you know what's normal.
[Gail Macrae]
Yes.
[Steve Kirsch]
Two Periods: COVID and Vaccine
So let's talk about two periods. Let's talk about the COVID period first and then let's talk about the, we'll call it the vaccine period, so the time after the vaccine rolled out. So let's talk about the COVID period.
COVID Period: Hospital Experience
So people were kind of locked down about March of 2020 and they were told like, wow, the cases are escalating, people are in the hospitals, it's overflowing, we need to close businesses, we need to shut down. Like I remember being shut down in March of 2020 because of all of what's going on in the hospitals. Could you tell us what your experience was working inside the hospital at that time?
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, definitely. So at that time I was still benefited, so I worked full-time on one of the med-surg units.
[00:04:06]
It was linked to ICU, so our management was ICU management and we did shut down. Everyone was forced to wear PPE masks 24-7. The electrician- Were you seeing lots of COVID cases? No, we did erect a tent outside the building.
[Steve Kirsch]
For all the overflow cases.
[Gail Macrae]
Correct, it was never used, never.
[Steve Kirsch]
COVID Cases During Lockdown
Never used. How many COVID cases were you getting during this period? So the news reports were saying hospitals are being overflowed, they're putting up tents in the parking lot, everybody needs to lock down. I mean, they were painting this picture of like impending disaster. And you were locked out of the hospital too, you could only go there if you had COVID, right?
[00:05:05]
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, it was very interesting. We would admit other patients for other reasons, it's just not elective. So no joint replacement surgeries, things like that were canceled.
[Steve Kirsch]
So only if you, like a automobile accident, you'd get in.
[Gail Macrae]
Exactly.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, so how many COVID cases were you seeing at that time in a day?
[Gail Macrae]
COVID Cases: Numbers
Definitely less than 20 for the first nine months. During the winter of 2020 and 2021, we did see a few spikes. And I'll interject in a little bit here, it's not just my hospital. So as a nurse and as a graduate from Cal State East Bay, I was friends with nurses all over the state. And it was, and especially nurses in Sonoma County. I had friends in hospitals all over the county and none of them were full.
[00:06:02]
I had multiple engagements with staff members all over all of the hospitals. And in the year of 2020 in Sonoma County, there was not one moment when our hospitals had above normal patient admissions.
Hospitals Under Capacity
Now, in addition to that, I'll say that because they canceled elective surgeries and people were so afraid to come to the hospitals, not only did we not have increase in admissions, we were actually so under, we had- Capacity. We were so far under capacity that the staffing department was calling us staff members and asking us to stay home because they just didn't have the patience to staff the staff, to bring the staff.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right, so how far under quota or capacity or normal capacity were you?
[00:07:02]
Is it 50% lower?
[Gail Macrae]
I didn't actually see the data. I'll tell you though that I was canceled during that first year of COVID, probably three times more often than I'd ever been canceled as a nurse. I basically- Right, but- Every day off that I wanted. I would have never had to go into work and the hospital would have been happy.
[Steve Kirsch]
Hospital Capacity During Peak COVID
But in terms of percentage of beds occupied or percentage of capacity of the hospital, what do you think it was during those peak COVID times before the vaccines rolled out?
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, so between March and November of 2020, we were probably 50% below normal capacity, if not more. We had a normal winter, so the winter of 2020, 2021, we had two spikes in patient admissions, which happens every winter. And then because people get sick in the winter and they come into the hospital, it was normal.
[00:08:01]
There was nothing outside of the normal range until the rollout of the shots.
[Steve Kirsch]
COVID Admissions Per Day
Okay, so, but you said that the COVID cases, you said were 20 a day. Are you saying that there were 20 new hospital admissions per day for COVID?
[Gail Macrae]
No, we had a unit that was the COVID floor and there were 30, I believe right around 30 beds on that unit. And I would say on average, we had less than 10 patients on that unit during the winter, those two peak surges. That unit did fill up with COVID patients. So that's 2020 and 21. But again, in combination with the normal patient admissions it was not outside of the normal range.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, so, if we don't take into account the winter months when people, sort of normal, the April, May, June, July, 30 beds available for COVID.
[00:09:06]
What was the, how many beds were occupied on a given day in the COVID ward?
[Gail Macrae]
Between two and 15.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, and two and 15, that's kind of a broad range. Is it, what was the average?
[Gail Macrae]
I would say it was probably averaging around eight to 10.
[Steve Kirsch]
So 10 beds occupied, meaning you're not getting very many admissions per day. And the people who are in there are going out. They're basically admitted, they leave. And so it's not like it's filling up and you have hundreds of people in the hospital. It's like you get one in and maybe one out. So how many, what were the average number of new admits of COVID per day? Because if it's stable around 10, then the admits have to be the number of discharges.
[00:10:00]
[Gail Macrae]
One to two to three per day. It was not high.
COVID Treatment Issues
I would also add too, though, that the treatment of COVID during that time was not being handled correctly. We had really draconian measures being taken in the hospital for COVID policies, for treatment of COVID patients. That was one of the things that really blew me away as a practitioner and a healthcare provider is I couldn't believe that we weren't giving people the best care that we could. We were just following the protocols.
[Steve Kirsch]
Nurses in Other Hospitals
Okay, so I wanna get into the protocol in a second, but you said that you talked to nurses in other hospitals in California. So I just wanna find out whether this one case a day coming in, one case a day going out, was this typical in other hospitals that you talked to that everybody was very, that they had this big COVID ward and they had, it was maybe a third full and it's not growing and they aren't spilling out into the parking lot.
[00:11:17]
Was it spilling out to the parking lot or overcapacity in any of the hospitals you talked to or were they all under capacity?
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct, especially in Sonoma County. I know for a fact throughout 2020, there was not one moment when we had excess of COVID patients being admitted to any- But for any other hospital in California? None that I know of. Some of the Kaiser's in the South Bay became very filled with COVID patients during the winter of 2020 and 2021. But even then it was primarily, you know, after January, which was when the staff started taking these shots.
[00:12:03]
[Steve Kirsch]
So it's really hard to say- Right, what was the cause?
[Gail Macrae]
Cause, exactly.
[Steve Kirsch]
Disconnect Between Press and Reality
But so clearly there was this big disconnect between what the press was telling people and what you were personally experiencing. Did you have conversations with your other colleagues saying, wow, the press is reporting that we're overwhelmed and the reality is completely different? Were people just saying, oh, that's probably just our hospital and all the other hospitals are filled and we're just unlucky.
Colleagues' Reactions
So it's nothing really to, you know, talk to the news media about. It's just, we're just an anecdote.
[Gail Macrae]
You know, I wish that the conversation would have gone that way. Usually what ended up happening, because I did have multiple conversations like that with colleagues. And a majority of the time, I really just couldn't even get them to engage.
[00:13:00]
People's faces would really just glaze over. They didn't really wanna talk about it or think about it. And so we ended up just kind of moving the conversation along. It was almost like it was taboo to discuss. It was like, you know, you can't, you just can't even talk about it because we can't think about it. So we can't talk about it and, you know- Okay, makes sense.
[Steve Kirsch]
So we don't, we don't, just follow orders.
COVID Protocol
And speaking of following orders, you talked about the COVID protocol. What was the COVID protocol? And you basically, if someone came in with COVID, you had to stick by the protocol in terms of, do this, do this, do this, do this. It is all by the book. It is not by doctor. Doctors had no discretion. They basically follow the procedure or you're fired. Is that how it worked?
[Gail Macrae]
Withholding Steroids
That's correct. And it was astounding from day one. Again, this was another situation where I would just talk to my doctor colleagues and say, why, why are we withholding steroids?
[00:14:05]
So there's a lab value called CRP, C-reactive protein. It's a marker for inflammation.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right.
[Gail Macrae]
COVID caused the highest CRP values that we had ever seen in any infectious disease in history. And so when I would see that on my patient's charts and I would bring that up to the staff, the doctors and say, why is it that we have the highest CRPs we've ever seen and we're withholding steroids? This doesn't make sense. Steroids are the standard of care for inflammatory disease process.
[Steve Kirsch]
What'd they say?
[Gail Macrae]
Again, it was the same kind of response. Like this is the protocol. Their eyes would glaze over. We couldn't talk about it. There was just so much of this, you know, mom is the word, can't talk about these things.
[Steve Kirsch]
Where Protocol Came From
Where does the protocol come from? Did it come from the CDC?
[00:15:00]
Did it come from like, where did it come from?
[Gail Macrae]
Well, yes. So the CDC, the AMA, the ACOG, these three letter organizations, these health agencies, they make protocols apparently based on best research and they pass those protocols down to the hospitals. And if the hospitals don't follow the protocols, then they're at risk of losing funding.
[Steve Kirsch]
This is why we follow the directives. We risk losing funding.
[Gail Macrae]
The hospitals risk losing funding if they don't follow the protocols. And the doctors risk losing their licenses if they don't follow the protocols. So this is what I learned in grad school doing my nurse midwifery degree was the impacts of following the best recommendations put out by the three letter agencies in that if, so as a nurse midwife, I would follow the midwifery protocols, but I would work in tandem with OBGYNs and they would have to follow the ACOG medical recommendations.
[00:16:11]
And if they strayed outside of those regulations and those recommendations, they would be at risk of losing their funding and they would also be at risk for having their licenses reviewed. So we really did have our hands tied. I don't think that's an excuse, but it did definitely have a pull on- Yeah, people lose their job or their license, they can't save patients anymore.
[Steve Kirsch]
COVID Protocol Details
So what was the protocol that you for COVID at that time, back in say April, May, June of 2020?
[Gail Macrae]
Right, so there were several things that really stuck out with the protocol. The administration of the experimental use authorization medication remdesivir, that's an antiviral.
[00:17:01]
It had very few clinical trials and very little research done on it. At the time when we started administering remdesivir, I watched patients decline with the administration of that medication. And in addition to that, I understood that in my undergrad, we were trained not to administer an antiviral more than 72 hours post-symptom onset because the risks outweigh the benefits. And so we had these patients coming in with COVID who were most of them about 10 days post-symptom onset, and then we were giving them an antiviral that was experimental. And again, I would address my doctor colleagues and say, why are we doing this? This is contrary. It makes no sense. It makes no sense. And they would, again, it just was so repetitive, just this blank stare, follow protocols.
Medical Ethics Violations
I couldn't, I honestly couldn't, I had a hard time processing that my colleagues were just okay with going along with all these things that so clearly violated medical ethics.
[00:18:08]
So the next thing about the protocols was the lack of administration of steroids for the CRP values. So not only were we withholding steroids, IV steroids, which would have helped control inflammation and prevent patients from going into shock and sepsis, septic shock, it also would have helped them breathe better and prevent onset of ventilation. So we were also withholding steroid albuterol treatments. So if you were diagnosed with COVID, and I mean, this is such a no brainer. If you're diagnosed with an inflammatory disorder of the lungs and you're having trouble breathing, you have to be able to get steroids to release that inflammation in the lungs.
[00:19:01]
[Steve Kirsch]
And to- But it's not allowed on the protocol.
[Gail Macrae]
Not allowed. So no steroids, the use of remdesivir as an antiviral, which was contraindicated.
Family Members Not Allowed
And then probably the other most shocking and criminal aspect of the COVID protocols was how they prevented us from allowing family members to come into the bedside of their dying loved ones. So that's another thing- That's part of the protocol. Yes, yeah.
[Steve Kirsch]
We could not allow family members- This explains why all these hospitals were not allowing family members to have last words. I mean, hospitals were basically killing people who had COVID.
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, they were.
[Steve Kirsch]
Criminal Charges Against Hospitals?
Do you think there'll ever be criminal charges brought against the hospitals? If we don't- The doctors who are basically, they're following orders.
[00:20:01]
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, that's what they were doing.
[Steve Kirsch]
But this is like, yeah, I did illegal stuff. I did stuff. I mean, they have a duty, they have a Hippocratic oath. So they just put that aside because they're gonna keep, otherwise they'll be fired.
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah.
Doctors' Reluctance to Speak Out
Did you ever talk to any doctor who, you said, boy, this sucks. Like, were any doctors willing to confide in you saying that, jeez, this is wrong, I need to speak out? No doctor would speak out, right? Nobody would go against the grain?
[Gail Macrae]
I did not find a doctor at my hospital, but I did find doctors at other Kaiser Permanentes. We had created a pretty large network of practitioners who were noticing what was going on and who were very disturbed by it. One of those doctors, as a matter of fact, was an oncologist who'd spent over 20 years in cancer research.
[00:21:06]
And in October of, sorry, August of 2021, she analyzed her data on cancer diagnoses and she'd found a 325% increase in cancer diagnoses directly associated to the onset of administration of the COVID shots. And that was back in 2021, in August of 2021. She was too afraid to bring that data forward because she was afraid of losing her job. And there are dozens of doctors like that. I know at least a dozen from the Bay Area Kaisers, doctors who've seen and witnessed and participated in crimes against humanity, and they're not willing to come forward and speak because they're too afraid.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right.
Doctors Afraid to Lose Jobs
It's very troubling that they know it's wrong.
[00:22:03]
They're not saying anything because they don't wanna lose their jobs.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, it's more than that. So I went through it. I lost friends, family members, community members. I mean, I'm sure you have too, Steve. It really is. It's like they built their entire lives on this job and the prestige of having this career, and then they would have potentially lost it all.
Accused of Spreading Misinformation
It was hard losing family members, being accused. So I was accused by family members of spreading dangerous misinformation when I started talking about what was going on in the hospital to my family members.
[Steve Kirsch]
And that's- What did they not believe when you told them? Did they not believe anything that you said when you said the hospitals were empty, that we're giving this drug?
[00:23:01]
They must've assumed that, no, no, no, you don't understand remdesivir is this new kind of antiviral that defies the law of gravity and can cure you even 10 days after you've been infected. It's all basically, Gail, you have to trust the medical community. You have to trust these people. You must be wrong because you're swimming upstream and everybody else, all the doctors are saying, get vaccinated, the CDC says get vaccinated. It's basically the authority figures versus what you're saying and you're disagreeing with the authorities. And so therefore you must be wrong because everybody else is saying something different. Is that why they didn't believe you?
[Gail Macrae]
Washington Post Article
Yeah, this one family member actually quoted the Washington Post to me when she accused me of spreading dangerous misinformation.
[00:24:08]
[Steve Kirsch]
And so- On what was the topic? What did the Post say and what did you say?
[Gail Macrae]
So I was telling her about the new data coming out of Israel and the UK showing an increase in infertility associated with the onset of vaccination. That was the time when she made that accusation. We'd had multiple unfortunate conversations in the past where I had talked about what was happening in the hospital specifically. And she just would change the subject and try not to engage with me. And then there was the incident when I started quoting the data and she accused me of being a dangerous conspiracy theorist.
[Steve Kirsch]
Because what was the specific data that you were quoting that she quoted you, the Washington Post said this?
[00:25:04]
[Gail Macrae]
She sent me a Washington Post article saying that the fertility levels were still normal. So it was an article.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, I see. So you're saying you're the misinformation spreader. This is on the COVID vaccine on fertility, that if you got the, I'm gonna just jump there really quick.
Post-Vaccine Fertility Issues
So after the COVID vaccines rolled out, what were you seeing in terms of fertility? Were you seeing like all these stillbirths? Were you seeing miscarriages? Were you seeing like what happened to the rates of miscarriages and stillbirths and so forth nine months after the COVID? Or it doesn't even have to be nine months, right? It could be just three or four months. But after the COVID vaccines rolled out, did you notice a difference in the maternity ward?
[00:26:06]
[Gail Macrae]
Stillbirths and Miscarriages
So I wasn't working in the maternity ward specifically, but yes, my colleagues did report to me that they were seeing increases in stillbirths and miscarriages.
[Steve Kirsch]
But increases like 10%, like 100%, like 200%, like what, quantify it.
[Gail Macrae]
Enough for them to notice. And that's not an easy thing to do. Again, it must have been hundreds of percentages for them to have noticed because we don't really notice those kinds of shifts.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right, because you're not tracking them on a day-to-day basis. So it has to be a big effect for them to say, whoa, something's going on here.
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
Silence of Medical Professionals
But again, they would be silent about not telling anyone, not telling the press, not talking to anybody. I know when I went to the hospital and tried to talk to someone at the hospital, they would refer me to the PR department and the PR department would then never return any of my calls.
[00:27:04]
Absolutely. A lot of transparency there.
Patient Asking About Steroids
And I suppose when you try to, if a patient asks the doctor, I don't know, if a knowledgeable patient asked the doctor, sir, why aren't you giving me steroids? I have inflammation. The CRP values are high. What would they say? They would just say, sorry, not allowed to do that. It's not in the protocol, right?
[Gail Macrae]
Threatening Legal Action to Get Steroids
We would have to threaten. So one of my colleagues, this did happen to her. She had to threaten the hospital with legal action in order to get steroids for her respiratory distress.
[Steve Kirsch]
Did she get the steroids?
[Gail Macrae]
She did. She ended up getting the steroids after threatening legal action.
[Steve Kirsch]
Wow. How did she do? Did she survive?
[Gail Macrae]
She did. Yep. That's why she survived.
[00:28:00]
She says it's because she was able to get steroids. She got albuterol specifically. Yeah.
[Steve Kirsch]
Wow. That's stunning. So you had to be a very knowledgeable patient in order to survive. That was the key.
[Gail Macrae]
Steroids and COVID Deaths
I would speculate that if we would have given people steroids, the proper dosages of steroids from the get-go, we would never have seen an increase in deaths with COVID.
Remdesivir and Multi-Organ Failure
I also do believe that the administration of Remdesivir did contribute. The nurses sat around the nursing station and talked about this. It wasn't just me. We all noticed that Remdesivir was causing people to decline. They would recover from the respiratory disease of COVID and then they would go into multi-organ failures. Usually it was renal failure. We would see liver enzymes tank.
[Steve Kirsch]
That's so typical. I mean, I hear that over and over and over and over again.
[00:29:05]
Nurses and Doctors Leaving
Weren't there some nurses or doctors who were so distressed by this that they said, I'm out of here?
[Gail Macrae]
That was me.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, right. But most people needed a job.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, yeah. So my husband, he was a civil engineer and then we had real estate property. So really I was not relying on my paycheck to pay my bills and it did make a difference. It allowed me to stand in ethics.
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah, so let me ask you this.
Deaths Due to Protocol
This is an important question, which is, let's say there are 100 patients that were admitted to the hospital for COVID. And, or sorry, let's say that there are 100 patients who died in the hospital, who came into the hospital for COVID and died. Let's say that 1,000 patients came in and 100 died or whatever the ratio was.
[00:30:02]
What percentage of the people who died from COVID do you think died from the protocol as opposed to from the disease itself? In other words, had they been treated properly, do you think that you could have saved 80%, 90%, 99% of those people? Like how many people were basically killed by the protocol versus killed by, you know, and had they been treated properly, they would have survived.
[Gail Macrae]
What's the, what kind of- I would say that it would be 95 to 99% of the people would have survived had we given them proper care.
[Steve Kirsch]
COVID Protocols Killed People
So it wasn't really COVID that killed people. It was the COVID protocols.
[Gail Macrae]
Yes.
[Steve Kirsch]
You're saying 95% or more of the COVID deaths in hospitals were caused by having to follow the protocol instead of a doctor using his best judgment for how to treat these symptoms.
[00:31:12]
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, I do believe that. And even, what's his name? I believe Dr. Lee Merrick. He had statistics very close to that. He had extraordinary outcomes by giving people steroids and sepsis protocols, yep.
[Steve Kirsch]
Post-Vaccine Period
Wow, okay, let's shift to the post-vaccination.
[Gail Macrae]
Isn't it? I got the first name wrong.
[Steve Kirsch]
Sorry?
[Gail Macrae]
It's Dr. Paul Merrick, I think.
[Steve Kirsch]
Ah, okay, yes. Yeah. Good friend of mine. Let's shift to the post-vaccine period.
Vaccine Rollout
The vaccines rolled out in your area in December, late December of 2020, like everybody else, or did you get it later?
[00:32:10]
[Gail Macrae]
The staff member got access to them in late December. We were offered the vaccines as staff members, I think, through the month of January. They weren't released to the public until mid to late February.
[Steve Kirsch]
Oh, so basically, they prioritized the healthcare workers so that they would be alive to protect against this disease, which wasn't killing anyone.
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
Hospital Staff Vaccination
So, okay, how many people in your hospital?
[Gail Macrae]
Staff members?
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah, total staff.
[Gail Macrae]
Thousands, probably over 1,000.
[Steve Kirsch]
And how many of them lined up for the shots?
[Gail Macrae]
Well, that's a good question, Steve. I would say that it was probably 99% of them.
[00:33:00]
So I had COVID in November of 2020, and I was sick for about a day, and then I was tired for a few weeks.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right, so you didn't get the shot.
[Gail Macrae]
Gail's Natural Immunity
No, I didn't, because I had confirmed natural immunity. I went to the lab.
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah, like, why would you get the shot? Were they coercing you to get the shot?
[Gail Macrae]
Absolutely.
[Steve Kirsch]
That makes absolutely no sense. Right, and because- That is insane.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, and because I was in grad school, I saw the data. I saw that they had shown people were developing autoimmune disorders, and there was a risk of autoimmune disorder if you got the shot right after having natural immunity. And some people were being encouraged to wait six months and get the shot six months after natural immunity.
Seeing What Happened After Shots
But at that point, I had seen what had happened in the hospital. By six months after my infection, I had seen what had happened in the hospital when people took those shots.
[00:34:00]
And so at that point, there was no way that I was gonna get them.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right, right, right.
Natural Immunity vs Vaccine
But even so, it makes no sense, because the way vaccines work is to mimic the natural, is to try to mimic the natural infection. There is never anything better than getting the virus, the real virus, and recovering. That is the best immunity you could possibly get.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, that was one of the... So before my hospital fired me, I submitted legal documents to them. And part of the evidence that I submitted was a review of something like 75 papers on natural immunity and how we've been designing vaccines to try and emulate natural immunity for 100 years. And we have never succeeded at producing a vaccine as effective as natural immunity. So that was one of my arguments to my employer.
[Steve Kirsch]
Hospital Rejected Natural Immunity
You can't beat it.
[00:35:00]
There's no... Well, I mean, I guess in theory, you could beat it. It's just that what we're just trying to do is just try to mimic the natural infection, getting as close as you can, but you can never really succeed by that because either you have a dead virus, in which case the immune system says, hey, that's a nothing burger. I'm not gonna even bother with it. Or you give something that's more of a live virus, in which case you risk giving the patient the infection. So there's this, yeah, we can't do it this way. We can't do it this way. So there's never any good way that people have figured out how to trick the immune system into providing this natural defense any better than the real thing. And so the hospital rejected all of your arguments?
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, they did.
[Steve Kirsch]
And you had how many papers? Did you say 75 papers?
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, there were 75 total, all addressing natural immunity, and many of them specifically at that point addressing natural immunity in relation to COVID-19.
[00:36:08]
And I actually had two separate antibody tests done over the course of eight or nine months to prove my robust natural immunity, and they both came back robust.
[Steve Kirsch]
Fired for Not Getting Shots
And so you had all the proof, and yet you were basically fired for not getting the shots?
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
Why am I not surprised? Yeah. And so all of this evidence, it made absolutely no difference as if you were talking to a wall, is that right? That's correct. And was there a committee of one, two, three, four, five doctors who are evaluating the 75 papers or?
[Gail Macrae]
No, as far as I understand, this was all taken care of by the legal team at Kaiser Permanente.
[Steve Kirsch]
The legal team.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, I submitted all the evidence to, so HR evaluated my evidence and my information, and then they're the ones that drafted up the firing documents.
[00:37:06]
[Steve Kirsch]
Awesome, so no doctor ever reviewed any of those, the 75 papers you submitted?
[Gail Macrae]
No, I submitted them to my school as well, and they did review the documents, and they decided that they were still going to proceed with not allowing me to complete my clinical hours.
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah, super, super cool, huh? Boy.
[Gail Macrae]
200 years of data on natural immunity, and this is what we have to show for it.
[Steve Kirsch]
Vaccine Side Effects
Okay, so you only then experienced like six months worth of vaccine side effect before you were basically forced out?
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
And you got a reprieve from getting the vaccine because you had COVID in November, and that was the reason they didn't fire you immediately?
[00:38:02]
[Gail Macrae]
No, they didn't fire anyone immediately. I was actually the first of the, I was one of four, the first four staff members that were fired by Kaiser. They didn't start, so they roll out the policy for mandatory vaccination for Kaiser employees.
Mandatory Vaccination Policy
The first email I got was on August the 2nd of 2021, and they were just warning us that they were gonna start forcing us to show proof of vaccination, and the deadline ended up being October 1st, which was today.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, so you basically, your employment terminated on October 1st? Yes. Okay, so you had almost a year then of watching what happened as these shots rolled out.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, over six months, yep. And it was profound.
[Steve Kirsch]
Staff Deaths and Injuries
Okay, so let's talk about the 1,000, you said there was 1,000 staff members at the hospital. Virtually, they all lined up like sheep to get the shots.
[00:39:04]
Yes, as far as I- Do you know how many deaths happened of the staff members? Like, how many of the 1,000 staff members did you lose because they died?
[Gail Macrae]
They don't disclose that information to us. I knew two of my direct colleagues from my unit went into anaphylactic shock after taking one of the shots, and then I know that the wife of one of our managers ended up having a permanent disability, and she ended up having to go into early retirement over the injuries.
[Steve Kirsch]
And she attributed it to the shock because it happened like right after the shot, or how does she know that it was the, that with the safe and effective vaccines that caused that, and not coincidence?
[Gail Macrae]
I don't know that she ever attributed it to the shot. I know that it occurred within a few weeks of her getting her COVID shots, and I was friends, I was close with her husband.
[00:40:01]
He was a direct manager of mine, and I knew her in passing. She was an ER nurse, but she retired. She was forced onto disability first, and I believe now she is retired. I haven't followed up too much with them, but she developed a neuromuscular disorder directly after, and she was, let's see, my age, she was right around 40, maybe 45.
[Steve Kirsch]
Neuromuscular Disorder After Shot
So I mean, that'd be pretty unusual to happen, but you could say just because there's one of them, it's not really big enough. There's not statistical significance in that unless you have larger numbers, and I'm sure, but most people are basically, they're just looking at, hey, look, you know, it didn't say anybody died from this. They gave it to our hospital, looks okay, and everybody's got this tiny view of what's going on.
[Gail Macrae]
Staff Member Anaphylactic Shock
So I mean, I knew what my direct staff members were experiencing.
[00:41:05]
Two of them, the two that I know of that went into anaphylactic shock were blown away, and they both refused to get the boosters, and I'm not sure what ended up happening with that, whether or not- Okay, wait a second, hang on.
[Steve Kirsch]
Your staff members, you mean in your circle of like 100 friends or 10 friends or like, because it's not the 1,000.
[Gail Macrae]
Correct, on my unit, so I worked directly with, oh gosh, probably 40 nurses and then 40 or so other staff members, and those were kind of the core of the people who I knew.
[Steve Kirsch]
The 80 people.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah.
[Steve Kirsch]
And you're saying that two out of 80 had anaphylaxis? Yes.
[Gail Macrae]
And that was within 15 minutes of getting those shots.
[Steve Kirsch]
They immediately went into- Two out of 80?
[Gail Macrae]
Yes.
[00:42:01]
A lot of the staff members, too, refused to talk about their reactions.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right.
[Gail Macrae]
So I heard about those because I was very good friends with one of the gentlemen who ended up going into anaphylaxis and he was terrified. He, you know, we sat down and talked about it and I was holding his hand and just, it was, you know, he had almost died and he had a family and it was really very traumatizing.
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah, I can see that.
Anaphylaxis Statistics
Two out of 80, that's quite extraordinary because they, what were they telling people? One out of 10,000, one out of 100,000?
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, that sounds about right.
[Steve Kirsch]
What, did they warn you that it's going to be like one out of 10,000 that would have anaphylaxis?
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, but I'll tell you, I ended up becoming friends with another one of the nurses who noticed something was wrong and stepped into our group.
[00:43:11]
You know, it was basically a support group because anyone who noticed and started talking about it you know, we noticed that these topics were all taboo and that we would be attacked for discussing them.
Nurse Administering Vaccines
And so she was a nurse that actually worked on the COVID-19 injection clinic in nearby Kaiser in the Bay Area. And she administered the vaccines for eight hours a day for months on end. And within a few weeks of administering these shots, she had been witnessing eight to 12 episodes of anaphylactic shock per day.
[Steve Kirsch]
And- Okay, so this is good. This is now we have bigger numbers here. So eight to 12 per day, but how many was she vaccinating?
[Gail Macrae]
You know, she didn't tell me those numbers.
[00:44:01]
If the clinic would be open for eight hours, I'm sure it waxes and wanes. There are, you know, constantly, depending on the day you might have a hundred people come in to get the vaccine and you know, on a slow day, it's probably closer to 15 or 20.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, but say maximum of a hundred and she'd have how many anaphylactic? You said eight to 12?
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, that's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
That's crazy.
[Gail Macrae]
And this is consistently?
[Steve Kirsch]
So, I mean, these are big numbers.
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, that is correct.
Reporting Adverse Events to VAERS
And in addition to that, when she asked the management how she should be reporting these to VAERS, because it takes a half an hour to report each adverse event.
[Steve Kirsch]
At least.
[Gail Macrae]
She was told by her manager that if she reported a single adverse event, she would be fired. Now she will not come forward and speak because she's too afraid to lose her job.
[Steve Kirsch]
Absolutely, because she'll be fired if she says that she was threatened.
[00:45:01]
You reported to, and she would, like if she was called into court, she would testify under oath that she was told if you report any of these incidents to VAERS, you'll be fired.
[Gail Macrae]
Code Blues Increased Tenfold
Yes, and I would report under oath that when we rolled out the shots in my hospital, we were administering these shots on the lower level of the hospital I worked in. There was a room on the lower level. They would call it the injection clinic. They would do PCR tests down there. And on the day shift, so I would go to work after we rolled out these shots and I'd work any shift, I was a fill-in. So I would sometimes days, sometimes PM, sometimes nights. When I was there on a day shift, I noticed within two weeks of the roll out of these shots that I started hearing about a tenfold increase in code blues.
[Steve Kirsch]
Throughout the entire hospital.
[00:46:02]
[Gail Macrae]
Well, they were all being called down to the lower level.
[Steve Kirsch]
That was the only- Right, right, but like within a hospital of your size, how many code blues would you normally have in the entire hospital in a day? Wouldn't it be like one a day?
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, so while it'd be about, I would speculate that it's one per shift.
[Steve Kirsch]
We- Oh, yeah, that's right, that's what I meant. One per shift means, and a shift is eight hours. Right. And so within the course of a day, you would be seeing three, on average, three code blues total for the entire facility in a 24-hour period.
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, that is a reasonable estimation. We would get about three code blues per day, about one per shift, and that was why it really stuck out to me because I kept hearing them over and over again, like, gosh, how many code blues are we gonna have? And then I started recognizing, oh, these are happening during normal business hours, but not necessarily on night shift.
[00:47:02]
And then I started paying attention and recognizing, oh, these are all calling people down to the lower level because that's what a code blue is. It's when a person stops breathing or their heart stops, and it calls emergency staff to the room of the patient. So on a normal day, I'd hear, oh, ding, ding, ding, code blue, level two, room 256. Emergency staff, please report, and that would be the code. But after the rollout of these shots, I personally observed between eight and 12 code blues being called on a day shift per day down to the lower level of the hospital.
[Steve Kirsch]
Timing of Code Blue Increase
How long after the shots rolled out did you see this increase? So you're getting like one per shift consistently. When did it, did it like uptick really, really quickly, or did it just uptick over the course of a month to being one per day at the beginning of the month, and then 30 days later, it was 10 per day?
[00:48:09]
Like what was the, over what period did it ramp up?
[Gail Macrae]
It was the first week of April when it really stuck out to me.
[Steve Kirsch]
So you never really attracted or noticed it before?
[Gail Macrae]
No.
[Steve Kirsch]
And now you were noticing this uptick in these code blues, and because you weren't like charting them and saying, oh, yeah, three, you know, that's normal. But it was like, ah, noticeable now. Wait a second, like 10 a day? And how long did that persist for? Oh, you know, then did it decline back to normal, or how long did it stay elevated for?
[Gail Macrae]
It stayed elevated. So my bulk of my time in the hospital there since I was in grad school, I would go to work in three week increments, and then I'd focus on my studies for eight weeks.
[00:49:04]
And so I was there extensively in March and April, and then again in June and July. And then I was fired during my stint in September. So that was, they sent me home from work in September when I reported to work, put me on leave, and then fired me. So during those three week periods of time at both of those episodes in both March and April, and in June and July, I was working doubles basically every shift I went in. So I'd do three weeks straight, you know, probably 15 doubles during those three weeks. And at both of those intervals, there was a tenfold increase in code blues.
[Steve Kirsch]
Code Blues and Vaccination
Okay, so the people who had the code blues, do you know if they were vaccinated or not?
[Gail Macrae]
Well, they were calling them down to the lower level to where they were administering the vaccines.
[00:50:01]
So people were going into anaphylactic shock immediately upon receiving those shots, and then they were being transferred to the emergency department from the lower level.
[Steve Kirsch]
I see. So these are directly vaccine related.
[Gail Macrae]
Yes, they were occurring within 15 minutes of the administration of the vaccine.
[Steve Kirsch]
Vaccine Reactions
And have you ever seen anything like this for any vaccine in history?
[Gail Macrae]
Never, it was extraordinary. And that's one of the reasons for the delay. It was so hard for me to comprehend what I was seeing. And, you know, it was really very overwhelming. The whole experience, it's taken a while to process.
[Steve Kirsch]
Difficulty Comprehending
Okay, but then wouldn't the staff members of the hospital realize what you realized and then say, hey man, no more shots for me. Like this job is not worth my life.
[00:51:00]
Staff Members' Reactions
Like why wouldn't, at that point, when it was very obvious, you see these code blues, you see all these people, like were people in the hospital saying not for me?
[Gail Macrae]
I definitely know that many of them have begun declining these, and it started around when we were all fired. So there were over a thousand California Kaiser Permanente nurses and staff members fired between October of 21 and January of 22. I believe it was closer to 1200. There were a lot of us who were fired. And it was right around that time. And after that time, when staff members really started to, and even with me, and I put it together very quickly compared to my colleagues. And even with me, it took some time for me to really process what I was seeing.
[00:52:02]
It's just, we all had faith in our system. And this is something that I think a lot of the medical staff still, they're still trying to maintain that faith in the system. They think that the system is there to help us. They set these protocols to protect us. And it's really hard to accept that that's not true.
Gail's Experience in Africa
And I would say too, that my experiences in Africa kind of helped me come to those conclusions more quickly because I had a very real experience of safety and when to be afraid and working in a rural community for an extended period of time really gave me the tools to critically evaluate when having a fear response is appropriate and when it's not. And so I'm not one to be easily manipulated by fear. And I would say that, unfortunately, I think that most American practitioners are, they are controlled and manipulated more so by fear than I was.
[00:53:06]
And that's helped me to really see and approach and process and respond to the atrocities that I was witnessing.
[Steve Kirsch]
Risk Benefit of Shots
So if I was in a hospital, I would have to think that, oh gosh, clearly there are these anaphylactic reactions and people dying and so forth from these shots, but I should get the shot because it's a risk benefit, that the benefits outweigh the clear risks. So even though I'm seeing all of these risks, that they have this imaginary benefit that allows them to rationalize taking the shots because they're told it's going to reduce my chance of dying from COVID and God forbid I die from COVID.
[00:54:00]
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, definitely. I think it's that in combination with the fact that people weren't really allowing themselves to be honest about the truth of the safety. Because I would say, like I would bring it up to them, are you not noticing this uptick in code blues? And again, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance. People just weren't willing to talk about it or think about it. So it was that in combination with, yes, them believing that this was for the greater good and these shots were gonna protect them from severe illness and disease, yeah.
[Steve Kirsch]
Shots and COVID Deaths
Do you think the shots had any beneficial effect at all in terms of saving you from dying from COVID?
[Gail Macrae]
After seeing what happened in the hospital after the rollout of those shots, I would have to say no. I was speculative before the shots came out. I was hopeful that they would. And I really did address the situation with a critical eye, hoping to see that they were helping the public and then I would have gone and gotten one because I wanted to do what was best.
[00:55:12]
I definitely wanted to practice scientifically, have that critical acute mind to do what was right. So there was one other thing that really kind of was the nail in the coffin for me when it comes to the safety of these shots because it wasn't just my personal observations in my hospital that led me to these conclusions that they were unsafe.
Manager's Data on Hospitalizations
In June of 2021, I was approached by one of my managers who I did respect and he told me that he had been consulting the data for our hospital and that he had seen a 300% increase in hospitalizations and deaths and it started in March of 2021. So that's a 300% increase. So we had seen 300% more patients than the hospital had ever seen since they opened their doors in 1990.
[00:56:04]
[Steve Kirsch]
And so- Wait a minute, since the vaccines rolled out.
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct. So we had lower admissions during 2020 and then directly correlated to the onset of these shots, we had a 300% above any year hospital admissions at the hospital.
[Steve Kirsch]
Hospitalizations After Shots
And is that, did that start like the month right after they started giving out the shots?
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, so I started getting, so after being canceled and sent home nonstop for the spring, summer and fall of 2020, starting in late February, early March of 2021, I started receiving three to four calls a day from the staffing department begging me to come to work. And they would say like, we'll do anything. We'll give you extra vacation pay. We'll pay you double time. So they were severely understaffed and that did not stop.
[00:57:01]
That went on from March of 2020 until I was fired in October of 21. And my close friends who still work there have said that it still has not stopped. The hospitals have remained extremely busy, busier than any years since we started rolling out with these shots.
Hospitalizations in Summer
And in addition to that, I would also remind you that as an acute care practitioner, so my mom was a nurse before me. So cumulatively we have about 55 years of medical experience in the hospital setting. And neither one of us had ever seen a hospital full of patients in the winter, I mean, in the summer. We would see them full every winter and then they'd clear out and everyone would be at the beach getting their vitamin D and wellness would be abounding in the community during the summer and fall months. So to have this 300% increase of hospitalizations, I mean, if it would have happened during the winter months, I might not have been so concerned, but this started in March and it continued through the summer months.
[00:58:10]
So even that in itself is so much more profoundly impactful because this is not even outside of the normal range for a normal time of year. This is 300% outside of a normal range for the summer months when the hospital is dead.
[Steve Kirsch]
Hospital Admissions Since 1990
So it was- In the hospital's history, the hospital has been around since 1990, right? That's correct. This is not just in the last two years, this is since 1990. So we're talking 33 years. In 33 years, it's 300% of the peak of 33 years.
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct, during the summer months. It was profound. And I couldn't understand why my colleagues weren't just as concerned about it.
[00:59:04]
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, let me just let that sink in here. So a 300% increase means it's a four times value. 100% is double, 200% is triple. A 300% increase is four X. So we're talking, it was 100, from the peak in 33 years, whatever it is, it's four times the peak of 33 years.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, that was reported to me by my manager.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay.
[Gail Macrae]
And he looked into my eyes and told me this and I couldn't believe it. I was, and I said to him, don't you think that that's peculiar that this started in March? And he couldn't hear it, he couldn't look at the facts.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay, so there must have been something going on in March or before March that causes people to be hospitalized.
[01:00:04]
Cause of Hospitalizations
Now this would have to be something that's novel because it's never happened in 33 years. This would probably be something that, like it could be in the food that people were eating, maybe in your area, but it was only, but these hospitalizations, I bet, were only happening to people who were vaccinated. Would that be a fair statement? Do you even know?
[Gail Macrae]
Vaccine Injuries
Yeah, so during that week when my manager approached me and told me about that increase in hospitalizations, it was very telling because I ended up working a double either the day before or the day after he had said those things to me. And I was filling a position for patient care coordinator. So I was filling in as a patient care coordinator. And in that role, you get report on every single patient on the whole unit.
[01:01:01]
So since I was working a double, I worked as a PCT on two different units. And so I got report on about 60 patients in that one 16 hour period of time. And I went home from work that day and I spilled to my family how I had just discovered that these were all vaccine injuries.
[Steve Kirsch]
All Patients Had Vaccine Injuries
So those 60- Wait a minute, wait a minute, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're telling me that all of the patients, this is, we're talking 60 patients is not a small number. You're saying that all the 60 patients that you were taking care of were vaccinated?
[Gail Macrae]
So I wasn't able to ask them their vaccination status for all of them. Many of them I did.
Guillain-Barré Syndrome
Two of them in particular were patients who had been diagnosed with Guillain-Barré. So in my career of 10 years as a nurse, I'd seen two patients total who had been diagnosed with Guillain-Barré. And within about three weeks of the rollout of these shots, I had seen four patients diagnosed with Guillain-Barré.
[01:02:03]
And of those four, I got the opportunity to ask two of them directly what they thought was the cause of the onset of their symptoms. And two of the four of them reported to me that they had received the COVID shots within 24 hours of the onset of their symptoms.
[Steve Kirsch]
Wow, that's a coincidence, isn't it?
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, in 10 years, two, and then in two weeks, four.
[Steve Kirsch]
It was very- Yeah, and it was, did you say within 24 hours? The ones that you asked were within 24 hours. I'm glad we're tracking this. I'm sure the CDC's on top of this. Well, and now- That's insane, right? You know, they're anecdotes. If it was one, you could say, ah, coincidence. Two? Within 24 hours? That is a, that's a train wreck. Let me tell you.
[Gail Macrae]
Reporting to VAERS
Both of those patients who reported that to me, so I then proceeded to suggest to them, have you told your doctor this and have they reported it to the VAERS system?
[01:03:10]
[Steve Kirsch]
Yep.
[Gail Macrae]
Patients told me that their doctors did not want to report it and that they could not conclusively prove that they thought that this was from the vaccines. So one of the women in particular was very vivacious and she basically insisted to her doctor that she was 100% certain that it was from the shots and that they needed to report it to VAERS. But I reminded her, and I also reminded my colleagues of this too, is that we have an oath to report.
Oath to Report
Practitioners have, we have, it is mandatory for us to report any adverse event. And it's not our position as staff members to judge whether or not it was factually caused by the vaccine.
[01:04:03]
It is only our job to report that it occurred and there is a potential that it could have been caused by the vaccine. And from there it's up to the researchers to determine what the cause was.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right, so the doctors basically said they didn't report it because they couldn't assess, it couldn't ascribe causality because just because it happened 24 hours after the shot doesn't mean the shot caused it and we don't want to cause alarm and we don't want to be fired either for making a VAERS report on this safe and effective vaccine. So that'll make sense.
Vaccination Status of Patients
Of the 60 people you said that were on your shift, you know, when you're having this, you know, huge number of people in the hospital, of the 60 people you said you didn't talk to all of them, how many did you, do you actually know the vaccination status of and was it all, were they all vaccinated?
[Gail Macrae]
There were six that I got the opportunity to ask, all six of them were vaccinated.
[01:05:04]
And I'll go into a little more detail on those 60 patients or 55 patients, it was between 55 and 60.
[Steve Kirsch]
So- Okay, so, but of the 60, then you only asked a small handful what their vaccination status was.
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
And you can't tell from their charts.
[Gail Macrae]
No.
[Steve Kirsch]
Because the vaccination status typically will be considered unvaccinated by, almost by default, right?
[Gail Macrae]
Correct. I was basing my conclusions on their diagnoses because I'd never seen what I saw in that day ever before.
[Steve Kirsch]
Diverse Set of Symptoms
Right, so if it wasn't the vaccine, could it be possibly caused by something else that could cause people to be hospitalized with, and these were a diverse set of symptoms, right? This isn't like food poisoning where you come in and you say, oh, you know, I'd been vomiting and so forth.
[01:06:01]
These are people with all different kinds of symptoms, right? Like I lost my vision, I can't talk, I can't feel, can't walk anymore, can't hear any, like, is it a huge set of like different symptoms for these people, or were they all coming in with the same symptom when there's this 300% increase, a 4X increase? Were they all coming in with the same stuff? Or is it like, this guy's got a heart attack, this guy's got a pulmonary embolism, this guy has, you know, like, tell me, is it all the same stuff, or is it all different stuff?
[Gail Macrae]
Six Different Diagnostics
Well, it was all within about six different diagnostics. So many of them, probably 15 of them, had peripheral clots that I'd never seen or heard of, different kinds of peripheral clotting disorders that just, I'd not seen one in my whole career as a nurse. And then in this one day, I got report on about 15 patients with- And you never saw that during the COVID period?
[01:07:06]
No, never.
[Steve Kirsch]
So it's probably not COVID, because the variant didn't change. No, the variant, the only variant that changed was the onset of these shots, and- So there's no doubt in your mind that these shots are killing people and caused excess mortality.
Shots Caused Excess Mortality
They were supposed to reduce mortality, but the result was a huge increase in mortality from your point of view, is that correct?
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct, and I try to give the companies the benefit of the doubt. You know, I'm sure that we probably had a bad lot number in Sonoma County, and it could contribute to such a massive increase in injuries. So that's part of the possibility for why.
Sonoma County Compliance
I think another part of it too is that Sonoma County has one of the highest compliance rates in the country, kind of similar to Marin, everyone went out and got the shot.
[01:08:06]
Sonoma County also, I learned this in my grad degree, we have one of the highest elderly populations in the country at over 26%. So that could also play a contributing role is that we have more potentially vulnerable population.
[Steve Kirsch]
Elderly and Mortality
Yeah, because the, you know, I've looked at the data from New Zealand, it clearly, but if you're like 70 or older, man, these shots will really increase your mortality rate. They really cause you to die at a much higher rate than baseline.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, but even despite that, I mean, the reason why I want to speak on these topics is it's not that I think that these shots are potentially, you know, they're gonna kill everyone who takes one, but there are very serious safety signals that were being suppressed.
[01:09:05]
And that's really at the core component here, how can we call ourselves scientists and how can we call ourselves healthcare providers if we're not gonna be truly honest with the information?
[Steve Kirsch]
Need for Honesty
And so that's really what continues to push me to advocate and speak because- Right, yeah, so when your boss told you that in the entire history of the hospital, this is 4X what we've ever seen in our entire history, didn't you tell him, hey, we need to go public with this, we need to talk to reporters, we need to write a paper, we need to let people know?
[Gail Macrae]
Manager's Reaction
You know, he said it in passing, I didn't get the opportunity to really sit down with him about it. You know, the hospital's always so busy. I did look at him though, and I said, doesn't this correlate directly to the onset of these shots?
[01:10:04]
And he just kind of brushed it off and moved along. I think we were having a shift huddle in that period of time, it wasn't- I don't know, 4X, 4X normal.
[Steve Kirsch]
Calling the Manager
So what would happen if I gave this guy a call?
[Gail Macrae]
That's a great question, Steve. I would like to say that he would speak about it. I've considered reaching out to him because I would like him to be a witness for my case.
[Steve Kirsch]
Could you, you know, it's pretty threatening if I give him a call, but could you give him a call and find out whether he would talk to me about what happened?
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, I would definitely give it a shot.
[Steve Kirsch]
Is he still working at the hospital?
[Gail Macrae]
I believe so.
[Steve Kirsch]
If he talks to me, he won't be working at the hospital anymore.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah.
[Steve Kirsch]
That's the problem.
[01:11:01]
[Gail Macrae]
Talking to Manager Off Record
Right.
[Steve Kirsch]
So, but if you could go and do that, just to ask him to see if he would talk to me either on the record or off the record, that would be useful, right? Because he could talk to me off the record. I won't, I can't disclose his name or what have you, but I can disclose what he allows me to disclose, which is I talk to an administrator of a hospital that I don't have to mention who it is. And that way we can get the word out, you know, and I have, you know, just another source that if needed, I could pull that, but that'd be super useful to me. Even if I can't use his name or the name of the hospital, it would be awesome. To get that from him. And I'd also like some insights as to why he didn't do anything about it. You know? And so, like I said, I'm perfectly happy not to disclose, you know, I don't need to disclose his name. I don't need to disclose where he works.
[01:12:01]
I'm super happy. If he wants, he can, you know, hide all that when we call. I'd love to chat with him. Cause I'd like to get into his head and understand, right? Because I can talk to people like you who basically are objecting and self-selected out of the system. But what I'm unable to do is ever talk to people who are in the system to really understand what's going through their head in a way that they're being honest with me. And so I can do that when it's off the record and his identity isn't being disclosed. I can find out what is really going through his head. Cause I would love to be able to do that.
[Gail Macrae]
Colleague Keeping Records
Yeah. One of my colleagues, she's a doctor actually. And I've had these conversations with her extensively when it comes to why she has stayed because she sees and hears me, you know, doing all this advocacy work and she honors that.
[01:13:02]
And she knows that I'm correct, but, and I ask her about it. And she has said to me multiple times that, you know, she's keeping records of what she's seeing. And at some point there will be a time and a place for her to expose the truth. She was working in the ICU throughout all of COVID. And she has very detailed notes.
[Steve Kirsch]
Well, so again, when she talked to me again, off the record, she can disclose all of this without jeopardizing her job.
[Gail Macrae]
I bet you she would.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay. Well, if you could do that, that'd also be great.
Clotting Disorders and Other Issues
You wrote to me that the patients that were admitted after March of 2021 had clotting disorders that you'd never heard of before, heart abnormalities, strokes, rapid onset autoimmune and rapid onset dementia.
[01:14:00]
Is all of that true?
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay. So this is not something that these hospitalizations were caused by something in the food supply or something in the air or whatever, because you wouldn't see a range of side effects that all be very similar. You know, like, oh, you know, respiratory distress, respiratory distress, respiratory distress. This is just a bunch of things that are all associated with the COVID vaccine.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, that's what came to me in June after that incidence.
Menstrual Cycle Issues
In addition to that, I had a really severe response in my menstrual cycle after that two week period in the hospital and I started hemorrhaging. I made an appointment to go see my doctor about it, but eventually it cleared up and I ended up going back to my normal cycle.
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah, sounds like shedding.
[01:15:01]
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, so I ended up getting my hands on some data. I'm connected with Dr. Christiane Northrup who is doing a lot of this research and she and I have had extensive conversations about how, yes, in fact, this has happened to me twice now after, you know, having menstrual cycles for 25 years, normal menstrual cycles. I've had two episodes of severe hemorrhaging, they're, you know, directly associated to exposure to people.
[Steve Kirsch]
Vaccinated people.
[Gail Macrae]
Yeah, and it seems to be a timeframe. You know, the more recent it is, the more I am affected.
[Steve Kirsch]
Right, you mean the more recently they got the shot? Yes. Right, and talk to me about the Epic system.
Epic System and Vaccination Status
So you guys use Epic, it's super popular EMR system, electronic medical record system. And in the Epic system, if you were admitted for COVID, they would populate this, the medical, your medical record, you get admitted for COVID, it automatically fills in that you're unvaccinated.
[01:16:10]
[Gail Macrae]
That's correct.
[Steve Kirsch]
How would you change that based on their- They don't know how to change it. Sorry, say again.
[Gail Macrae]
They did not teach us how to change the chart.
[Steve Kirsch]
Okay.
[Gail Macrae]
So the Kaiser Epic system would automatically populate as unvaccinated and we could not, it was a long, arduous process to change it to unvaccinated.
[Steve Kirsch]
You didn't even know how.
[Gail Macrae]
We're not taught how, correct. So we had to talk to some of the trained administrators who could, but I would say less than 1% of the medical staff ever learned how to. I didn't, so I did see. So what we would do is we'd end up just putting it in the note that the patient was vaccinated, but notes don't show up on the statistical data analysis.
[01:17:01]
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah, absolutely.
Pandemic of the Unvaccinated
Right, so basically this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated because it's jury rigged by the Epic system, which is used, like Epic is like the number one system used throughout the country, right, for EMR. So is this programming that was done when you enter a COVID case, is this done by Epic and is then true for all hospitals? Because I'm hearing this story from other hospitals as well.
[Gail Macrae]
Epic System Design
Yeah, so the Kaiser system, so Epic designs the charting systems for each medical facility. So the medical facility tells Epic what they want their charts to look like and Epic sets it up that way. So they set our charts up to have that red banner. The Sutter system, I had some colleagues that worked for Sutter, their system actually was set up to where the Epic would give them a dropdown menu that allowed them to select that a patient was either unvaccinated or that the vaccination status was unknown.
[01:18:04]
So for people who were fully vaccinated who came in diagnosed with COVID, they would have to select the unknown button and then put a note in the chart that the patient was vaccinated because there was no other way to do it.
[Steve Kirsch]
There was no option that they were vaccinated?
[Gail Macrae]
Correct. And I'll tell you- Okay, wait a minute.
[Steve Kirsch]
Unethical System
This is super unethical.
[Gail Macrae]
It was unbelievable.
[Steve Kirsch]
I could- Did you complain to your bosses like Epic screwed up here? They forgot to have an option that when you got admitted that you should be able to put in their vaccination status?
[Gail Macrae]
I didn't bring that one up to my staff members. It was such a troubling time for so many other reasons that that was kind of the last thing on my mind.
[Steve Kirsch]
This is medical fraud.
[Gail Macrae]
Yes. And in retrospect, I wish I would have addressed this with management.
[01:19:01]
So, and then one of my colleagues, the one who worked for Sutter with that other system set up like that.
Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Patients
So we all, the reason that we ended up talking about this and finding out like, gosh, this is so unethical was because those of us who worked on the COVID floors, we knew for a fact that immediately with the rollout of the COVID shots, there was an equal number of vaccinated and unvaccinated patients. So there was never a point when these vaccines were being administered to the public that our hospitals were full of the unvaccinated. There was never a time when that was the case. There was consistently fully vaccinated patients coming in with COVID at equal and then eventually increased rates. So towards the time when I was fired, over 80% of our patients being hospitalized with COVID were fully vaccinated.
[01:20:03]
[Steve Kirsch]
Vaccine Did Not Prevent COVID
Right, which means the vaccine did nothing to prevent you from getting COVID. In fact, it made it, the studies show it's more, it makes it more likely that you got COVID. And it didn't do anything for your deaths from COVID either because I've looked at the charts from the nursing homes. When the vaccines rolled out, you can't even tell that there were, there was certainly no reduction at all if you got COVID, there was no reduction caused by the vaccine, that is very clear. And some other stats show that there was an increase for when these vaccination spikes happened.
Why Gail Sees Clearly
How are you able to see this stuff so clearly and other people seem to be so clueless?
[Gail Macrae]
It's interesting, one of my first interviews was with a woman who was one of the first PhD professors in psychology and psychiatry and she asked me this question.
[01:21:04]
She said, why, I know the answer to this, but I want you to tell me why do you think you have come forward to talk about this when your colleagues weren't? And it really got me thinking it was a great way to help me really unpack all of this. And what she said to me was that being courageous is a learned skill and I have had experiences in my life like working in Africa that have taught me how to exercise courage and where I've learned the value of that skill.
Homeschooling and Strength
In addition to that, I would say too that I was homeschooled when I was younger. And this is actually a really good point of all of this. I like to think about what happened during COVID in the hospital, like it brings me back to high school because in high school, I looked around me and I noticed that all of my friends, they really looked for being accepted by their peers as being a determining factor for their own personal value and self-worth.
[01:22:13]
And because I was homeschooled, I really had to kind of sort that out personally. I had less peers and I really learned how to develop that strength of character and just be like, hey, you know what? It doesn't matter if I'm not part of the cool group. I'm homeschooled, deal with it. I had to develop that type of strength of character. And that's really exactly what I saw going on in the hospital during COVID was that I was surrounded by peers that were more concerned about fitting in and about being part of the in crowd and staying under the radar than they were about necessarily doing the right thing.
Courage and Honesty
And so because I'd had that practice in multiple different ways throughout my life, it gave me the skills to be able to really address this situation more honestly from the get-go.
[01:23:04]
[Steve Kirsch]
Others Corroborating
Yeah. Now, how many other people who worked in your hospitals would do this recording that we just did and corroborate everything that you just told me?
[Gail Macrae]
Of the nurses, maybe one. I know personally, there is many who know who are not willing to do this interview. I know of a couple of other staff members who are not nurses that would absolutely come on and corroborate. There were four of us who were fired at the same time. We all really stood up strongly.
[Steve Kirsch]
Group Call
And I know- You know, it'd be great to do just a quick group call just to go through, hey, here's what Gail said, and do you guys see the same thing, and all that.
[01:24:03]
Because they're fired, so they have nothing to lose. Could you find out if they would go on camera with me?
[Gail Macrae]
Oh, I'm sure they would.
[Steve Kirsch]
Oh, awesome. Let's set that up after this call. That'd be great. Okay. So anything else you want to add before I hit the stop button here?
[Gail Macrae]
Doing This for Her Children
You know, I would add one more thing on to the end of this in that, you know, why am I doing this? I'm really doing this for my children. I want them to see what courage looks like and to know how to act courageous in times like this. And I would really use that to encourage other practitioners to really recognize what kind of an example we're setting for our kids, because it's really very important. You know, these little subtle things, they're subtle, but they're very profoundly important. And I'm hoping to set up the next generation for having higher vibrational thoughts about these kinds of things, like the value of honesty and ethics and things like this.
[01:25:10]
So that would be my closing remark.
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah. And let me ask you this.
Open to Challenges
Are you open to anybody who wants to sort of challenge you on the numbers or what you saw, or ask you questions and so forth? Because it's funny how I can never get a debate with people who are pro-vax. I can't ask them any questions. And everybody on our side, you know, we want to have the engagement with people who disagree with us. Do you have any problems engaging with people who disagree with you and being challenged by them?
[Gail Macrae]
Absolutely not. And I'd add further to that to say that I will go under oath and report any of this in front of a judge and jury.
[Steve Kirsch]
Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you very much. You're definitely one courageous individual here that's making a difference.
Thank You
So thank you for speaking out.
[01:26:01]
This is very enlightening for me. I had not heard these statistics. It's nice to get the numbers, because I'm a numbers guy. I really love hearing, you know, what the numbers are, because people say, oh, there were more, right? But the numbers that we talked about here are a four times lifetime admissions after the shots rolled out. A, you know, 10X increase in these code blues happening after the shots rolled out. People being admitted for all kinds of disorders after the shots rolled out. I mean, these are all things that's impossible for people to explain away and say it was caused by something else.
Cognitive Dissonance
It's the cognitive dissonance is extraordinary. And you've given us some really, really strong data points here in terms of what happened and what you observed that simply cannot be explained away because the numbers are just too large a deviation from what is normal and the numbers are large.
[01:27:12]
So yeah, thank you very much. This is extremely, extremely beneficial.
Challenge to Explain Away
And I think I challenge anyone to, if it wasn't the shots, you know, people like to say, oh, correlation isn't causality. And I always say, yeah, that's true. But if it wasn't the COVID shot, what was it? And yeah, and people can't answer that. So anyway, thank you very much.